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Report 1018
Report #1018 Skillset: Skill: Death Org: Illuminati Status: Rejected Feb 2013 Furies' Decision: Rejected. We reduced Conglutination in the skillset to Master because it was not useful to demigod+, so we are not looking at this time to make it more useful to them (especially not so useful). Reduced essence loss for demigod/ascendant is not something we are interested in at the moment. Problem: A big problem of conflict events (domoths, villages, raids, etc) lies in the idea that it is very tough to swing the momentum of a fight the other way and -maintain- it for an appreciable amount of time. This is partly due to the fact that when you kill an entrenched group of raiders/domothers/etc, they are able to come back very quickly because there is no appreciable lag time between death and resurrection. If you add this on top of the ease of getting to places of conflict via *bixes, then it quickly becomes apparent that should you manage to win against an entrenched group with many advantages (shrines/skills/numbers/etc), your win will be short lived given that they are able to come back quickly. This isn't very fun or exciting. The change to shrine gravity reflects this anti-entrenchment sentiment, but there is still work to be done. Furthermore, Planar Conglutinate currently serves no purpose for both demigods and ascendants. This report seeks to remedy these issues. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Increase the time it takes for a demigod/ascendant to phoenix/insta-reincarnate. The time should be equivalent to PRAY FOR SALVATION for demigods (150s) and 2/3 (100s) that time for ascendants, given the 500k essence cost. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: In addition to 1, increase the time it takes to conglutinate for mortals. This should be about 2/3 the time it takes to PRAY FOR SALVATION (100s). Demigods who own conglutinate will have their phoenixing sequence time reduced by 1/3 to 100s, while ascendants who own conglutinate will have the essence cost for reincarnating halved. 0 R: 0 Solution #3: In addition to 1 and 2, ensure that no further experience/essence is lost once the person has begun conglutinating/phoenixing/reincarnation. Disable the tick that drains mana/xp, in short. Player Comments: ---on 1/11 @ 04:58 writes: I approve of this, both solutions. In exchange for phoenix taking more time, it should cost less. I like the additional idea of the penalty for deaths in player enemy territory dropping down from 2 million in exchange for an ever-increasing Phoenix time penalty. You will lose time up-front in the battle instead of behind the scenes bashing, which feels like a more appropriate penalty for dying in battle. ---on 1/11 @ 05:55 writes: Sure, if the harsh death costs are cut back. I don't want to lose a ton of essence AND spend 5 minutes reforming. ---on 1/11 @ 06:12 writes: Yes, part of my Big Plan is to review the essence cost of death after this, but I figured I should do things one at a time. Try and pass this, then we can talk about scaling down the essence cost of dying. I agree with your points so far though. ---on 1/12 @ 03:23 writes: Ungh, this one is going to suck. This is a compelling argument though and I can't say i disagree. Having a wave of enemies on you again before you can finish breaking their meld and taking down their shrine is no good. ---on 1/22 @ 10:36 writes: Supported, and I agree it would make sense to address death costs as well in future reports should this pass. ---on 2/5 @ 11:16 writes: Supported, as long as this doesn't affect immolates, avatar res abilities or similar (if someone puts the effort/power/their essence in to get you ressed, you should get the benefit). ---on 2/5 @ 18:06 writes: Yeah, every other way of rezzing (vitae-like, immolations, resurgem, etc) will be unaffected. In a way, this change will increase the value of those. ---on 2/9 @ 01:48 writes: This is a decent idea. I have a couple of other things that I would like to see done though. As stated, cut down the essence loss dramatically (the penalty will be one more in terms of time rather than essence). If you die in org-enemy territory, instead of taking 2 million essence, double the rez timer (your body is more disrupted and it takes more time to pull yourself together). ---on 2/9 @ 06:10 writes: If I correctly understand the core of this report, the intent is to decrease XP penalty and increase time penalty. As a variation on what is already discussed, why not introduce a MOBA-like mechanic of penalize rez time for each death incurred within a 24-hour RL period. Something to the effect that each additional death within 24-RL clock hours would incur a cumulative +20s penalty for each of these deaths. However, I'm not sure this is a mechanically feasible or a preferable solution. ---on 2/11 @ 15:52 writes: While I agree with the sentiment behind this report, I can't help but feel that it would be better implemented by having a period where grace of the innocents cannot be rejected to lock folks out of combat rather than having folks stuck in the dead state where they can't do much in game. ---on 2/12 @ 01:29 writes: Well that would make things unplayable for the people who die. Plus I won't lie, if I had permanent grace, I'd just try to be even more obnoxious given my 'invincibility' ---on 2/13 @ 03:20 writes: We -just- got innocence griefing removed, please lets not bring it back x100. Having is so that people in death limbo can hear aethers and keep deathsight would be more than enough to pass the time. ---on 2/20 @ 13:18 writes: I'm not a big fan of extending the amount of time you can't play the game because you're dead. Rather than force people to tune out the game because they're waiting to play again, just implement a timer that prohibits people from entering enemy territory for 100/120 sec after reviving. That solves the problem of raiders quickly returning while still allowing the player to play the game until he can return to fight more ---on 2/20 @ 18:18 writes: A minute and a half isn't exactly hours of being unable to play. While this is true, it -does- make it so the people who worked hard to dislodge the other team is able to build a meld or setup. That solution doesn't exactly solve the issue I outlined above: it's hard to swing a fight -anywhere-, not just raids, if everyone instantly rezzed. ---on 2/21 @ 20:34 writes: In an era where the average attention span online is approximately 9 seconds, 100-120 seconds of being unable to do anything can feel like an eternity and doesn't foster a feeling of involvement in the game. Given that there are less draconian solutions to this problem (prohibit recently dead from entering enemy territory, have those who pray rez in their city/commune and unable to leave org territory and/or manse for 100/120 seconds), I'd rather choose one of those ---on 2/22 @ 02:59 writes: I would argue that being stuck to one place or being mechanically prohibited from entering another is arguably worse than a period to cool off and get a drink and/or use the bathroom during intense circumstances. But I guess we'll just agree to disagree. ---on 2/23 @ 08:25 writes: Opposed. The point of the essence loss for death is to curb griefing an org. Time is not a limited resource in the same sense as essence. Essence is the risk and potential cost one takes for raiding an enemy org (and it is minimal unless one is going to raid and die over and over). Timeout simply does not compare unless it locks you out of the area for a far longer period than 5 minutes. I am also opposed to any sliding scale for pray time. The point of this request is to make it even easier to take a domoth, when it is already pretty easy. ---on 2/23 @ 09:46 writes: Um, no it's not. I even mentioned the intent in its entirety on the problem section. I don't know where or how fast you bash, but I certainly can't accrue 2 million essence in a short amount of time, which by definition, does not make the cost "minimal". As an example, I can get about a million essence after 6 hours of bashing Lirangsha. I feel that losing -twice- that amount on a raid that lasts maybe 30 minutes is far too punitive. But as I said, that specific debate is not for this report. Furthermore, I did not even address any talks about a timeout, sliding scale, or anything in this report. That will be dealt with once the admin have rendered a decision on this idea to begin with, so I'd appreciate it if we remained on topic. Lastly, if taking a domoth were that easy, then most domoth steal attempts would end in success. I assure you, having participated in many, many more domoth attempts more than any envoy (considering I've been active since the mechanic was implemented), the "defending" team almost always wins since they have home field advantage in the form of a meld, shrines, and the knowledge of where the domoth item is. As an example, a team of Hallifax/Serenwilde/Celest made an attempt to steal a domoth claim by Gaudiguch, but was ultimately repelled simply because Gaudiguch was able to employ a meld, shrine (at the beginning), and had numerous quick ways to return to the fight. End result: no change, domoth proceeded. ---on 2/25 @ 17:45 writes: A couple minutes of time out is a bummer but will greatly improve the flow of combat. Having a strong set up will still be an advantage but not inordinately so. It will make staying alive more important, killing key targets more significant and move things away from blindly attacking with no strategy or hoards of non-com fodder ruling the battlefield. There are many ways to go about it. Have it just apply to demjyys and higher and lock them into the heavens until their bodies adjust to the shock of dying or whatever but this is a solid change. ---on 2/25 @ 23:24 writes: What Llandros said is true. Furthermore, it also rewards a smaller, yet smarter and more coordinated group who manages to pick members of a large group off and help even the odds a bit more. Honestly, I think mechanics that reward this sort of behavior can only be a good thing. IMO, the worst that can be said of the idea is that it also equally rewards said large group, but then I'd say 'not much difference compared to now' to that. P.S. Another recent example - Celest challenged the beauty domoth on urlachmar 1 348, Gaudiguch/Glomdoring went to steal. The latter lost due to large numbers, a shrine, -and- the main competition being able to quickly come back after dying. End result: no change. ---on 2/28 @ 09:25 writes: Another situation where this change would lead to a more beneficial, balanced and fair conflict situation: Adding a delay between death and resurrection means that the popular tactic of 'die->instarez->run in (with serpent or GP) and accrue more points towards your time based victory condition->repeat' becomes nearly impossible to do. This popular for domoth absolves, stage 2 of securing a domoth, and even the final stage of a domoth. Such tactics lead to boring fights and grants a pretty hefty advantage to the implementer just so long as he or she is willing to eat a death every time. Moreso if she can cure well or has serpent up. ---on 2/28 @ 09:27 writes: IMPORTANT REQUEST FOR REPORT: After thinking about it, it would probably be easier to just mechanically lock out the PHOENIX/REINCARNATE command until the requisite time has passed (please give a message when you can do the command). This would probably save coding time, having to write messages, or anything else like that. Of course, you guys are free to do whatever you want. Just making a suggestion! ---on 2/28 @ 22:06 writes: After reading the comments, still opposed. Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but I don't see any reason to buff ascendants even more, while making it harder for non- ascendants to rejoin the fray. Either bixes can be used for these things or they should be just shut off during domoths. Domoths are supposed to be a team effort and I just don't see that having 'different res times' facilitates teams. ---on 2/28 @ 22:18 writes: One thing I have always like about IRE games is the furious combat, MMOs like Rift have moved away from death penalties towards getting people back into the fight quickly. This sit out the fight because you missed the ascension bus (few of those proposing this have problems getting back to the fight on their own) it not fun to the vast majority of the playerbase. If this goes though, I would like to see something along the lines of a domoth bond which would allow players to return to the bubble on their own. In short, this seems like a great for those proposing this, but what is in this for the average player?